Will Games Eat the World?

[upbeat music]

Thank you, thank you.

We're here to talk about video games.

So, before I became a special projects editor here at Wired,

I had two different titles.

I was a service editor, which means that I was responsible

for how to make your laptop run faster and stuff like that,

which is fun.

And then I became the games editor.

And because ultimately we needed somebody

who plays video games and I'm talking like,

I'm going to share a secret with you guys,

so none of you can tell.

I have 4,000 hours in Destiny Two. I just checked.

Do you know how many days that is?

Anyway, you're not here to listen to stand up from me.

Let me bring on our panel.

First of all, I want to bring up John Hanke,

the CEO of Niantic, who you may know from such amazing games

as Pokemon Go and Monster Hunter Now,

and my OG that I still have installed on my phone,

Ingress, which takes me way back.

Let's also have Dr. Rachel Kowert come up to this stage.

She's a research director at Take This.

Yay! There we go.

Rachel's a good friend of mine.

We talk a lot about toxicity in gaming

and how it needs to stop.

And then finally, I'd love to bring up Jade Raymond,

the president, founder of Haven Studios,

with a long and illustrious gaming history,

including at Ubisoft, EA and more.

Please, by all means, have a seat.

So, let's get started.

Rachel, I said I would ask you about this.

Tell me about your book.

I didn't know it was the first question.

It is going to be the first question,

'cause I mean, it's relevant to the topic at hand.

It is. So, I have a series of books called

the Psych Geist of Pop Culture,

where you take a psychological lens deep dive

into your favorite fandoms.

I like to call it a love letter to our fandoms.

We're doing a Destiny one.

Yeah.

But the one I just published is about The Witcher,

because if you know me, you know I have a,

I'm going to say healthy obsession with The Witcher

and we just published it, so thank you for mentioning it.

Yeah, congratulations.

Thank you.

So, a lot of your work has to do with

not just toxicity in gaming, but inclusivity in gaming.

And that's the one thing I really want to start

everybody off on is building games and designing games

that are both kind of engaging and player forward,

but also designed for different groups of people

to kind of come together and everything.

And I think both of you have experience in that.

Jade, I really want to start with you though,

'cause you've worked on a number of AAA titles and things

where you've had to think very deeply about

your player base.

And how am I going to market a game

that has data-driven insights,

but also make it inclusive and have those core values?

How does that work in a studio environment?

I think what we like to say is creatively led,

but data informed.

And I mean, I think for anyone who plays games,

you realize that the most important thing about a game

is the story that players live,

not the story that the creators want to live.

So, when I say creatively led, it's not about

really telling your own or having your own creation

lived by players.

It's creating a framework

where players can live their own stories,

their own adventures.

The memorable moments are the experiences

that you have as a player.

So, how do you enable those?

So, that's, I think the way I think about it.

That's awesome. John, let's go to you

because I mean, every single one of

your company's games, right?

I mean Ingress...

I'm going to talk a little bit about Ingress

just because I played it for so long

and I still have it on my phone.

And I remember doing live events

and coming out to an Ingress event

and seeing hundreds, if not thousands of people

just all come together to just have fun.

How does that feel when you are building these games

and you're like, I can get people out into the real world.

Yeah, we try to get our whole company out to our events.

With Pokemon Go, just so many like stereotypes

about who plays games,

and if you have some of those stereotypes,

if you want to see what gamers really look like

or people who like to play games really look like,

come to one of our events.

We had 190,000 people across our events this summer,

the Go Fest events, which we had in Tokyo,

and in London, and in New York City.

And you'll just see so much diversity,

people from literally all walks of life,

grandparents, young people, young families,

couples of all sorts, groups of friends.

It's an incredibly diverse set of people that enjoy games

and see games and something that bring them together

and add a lot of joy and fun to their life.

So yeah, the live events are a core part of what we do

and it's inspiring to see how much fun people have

and what games can do for people.

That's fantastic.

And I mean also let's talk a little bit about

building communities around these games, right?

And I also want to get to Haven Studios

and your upcoming game, Fairgames, right?

And the whole principle there is to create a different kind

of game where the people come together

and play, even competitively

and it's still a very good positive experience.

Can you tell me a little bit about what you guys are

strategizing about how that's going to take shape?

Obviously, you know, we're way out from a launch

or anything, but how are you thinking about it now?

Yeah, we have a really great head of community management

who has tons of experience here named Craig.

And he really has a strong philosophy on how you build

a healthy community.

And there's a lot of similarities between building

a great healthy company with a good culture.

I think it's really having those fundamental values,

and making sure everyone understands

how those values are lived out,

and really being vigilant about protecting

the kind of culture and community,

whether it's in the game or in your studio,

because things can quickly devolve

or quickly go in another direction.

So yeah, we called our studio Haven

because we wanted the studio to be a haven

for people to work.

And we had the same dream that our games,

we're all doing games as service,

are going to be also havens

where players can come together

and experience a different kind of community.

See, that's wonderful.

So Rachel, that leads me to you and your research.

What have you been finding in terms of...

I'll set this up a little bit.

I love this.

There's a YouTube channel called Extra Credits that I love.

And they just did a video about how gaming has felt lonely

these days, and what was it, something like half

of American young people report feeling lonely.

And they feel like the part of the ease of matchmaking

and everything can create very quick games,

but it doesn't really foster great communities.

So, what have you seen in your research in terms of

what developers and also what players can learn about

getting into more inclusive and more, I don't know,

empathetic gaming communities?

Yeah, I think it's what Jay just said about the values

being reflected in the game and community culture.

Games are really powerful because they reflect culture,

but they also create it.

So, if you're getting a quick pickup game,

of course you're not going to feel

a great sense of community.

You're going to be with those people

for a very short amount of time.

But if you're in these longer kind of service games,

or Ingress has been around forever,

and Pokemon Go, that's creating a strong sense,

a long sense of community.

And games are actually very unique at creating that.

As compared to other spaces on the internet,

we see longer, closer, more intimate ties that are formed

between gamers because they're doing something they love

together and it's fun.

It's fun. That's the bottom line.

So John, back to you, because talking about people

who get together and relate and everything,

I still have friends, I mean,

I live in New York City now,

but I have friends in Washington DC

because I used to live in DC,

who were all people that we would get together

and play Ingress with.

And then when Pokemon Go came out,

we would get together and play Pokemon Go.

And I mean, you must see that a lot,

people who not just identify by the community

that they found in these games,

but they feel real, real tangible relationships to it.

For sure, and we kind of stumbled into

building that kind of game.

We wanted to build products to experiment

with new kinds of hardware,

like augmented reality and wearables.

Back when we started this at Google,

Ingress was one of our first experiments.

But what we saw was that by nature of designing a game

that was to be played outside,

turning the real world into the game board,

people ended up getting together in groups to play

and that spread virally.

And what we heard back from players was that

that was a real benefit to them.

It was something that was missing in their lives.

A lot of other technology was kind of causing people to feel

more isolated, and having something that brought

people together with their friends

and was a relatively low cost thing,

you could get together and walk around and play together,

elicited a really strong response.

So, we made it a core tenant of the company.

So, we have a three point mission,

which is to encourage people to exercise,

to explore the world, and to engage in real world

social interaction.

And we incorporated everything that we learned from

that into Pokemon Go.

And you know, I think it's important that

those of us in the technology industry think about

how can we use what we're building

to have a positive impact on the world?

Just before coming on stage,

I was reading the Surgeon General report

on the loneliness epidemic, and it's absolutely true

that it is an epidemic and there are serious psychological

and physiological negative impacts from that.

So, anything that we can do to help people reconnect,

to form and support friendships, to encourage people

to become more engaged with their local community,

those are all positive impacts

that technology can help drive.

It's just a matter of us being kind of mindful

and thoughtful about the kinds of products

that we're building to help encourage that.

That's fantastic.

And Jade, so I want to talk a little bit about

building a studio, right?

Because I have friends who do their own thing,

they're indie folk streamers and stuff like that.

And every now and again, and even in journalism,

we all get, a lot of times we gather together

and dream about what it would be like to start something new

that is kind of focused on our core values.

And that's something you've done not once,

but several times.

What's the process of starting a development studio

and how did you go about it?

Yeah, well I've had a lot of practice.

I got a chance to build a studio

for Ubisoft, TBsoft, Toronto.

I built some studios for EA

and then was part of Google's foray

into building studios with Stadia.

So, now with Haven, I finally got to build a studio

as an independent with some co-founders.

But we really got to take all of that learning

of having built many different studios

under different contexts with different company cultures

and kind of feed that into the way we were seeing things.

And I do think, I like to shine a light on the good parts

of the game industry, and I think there's a lot

of great stuff about working in our industry

with so many talented people.

And so, it's really an amazing opportunity

to get to create this kind of entertainment

that enriches people's lives,

that often brings people together.

And we should be having fun doing it too.

We should be getting together and enjoying working

on these amazing products together.

So, that's the simple vision is how to take

what I've been lucky enough to learn

sort of building studios on other people's dime

and putting that into practice in a studio

with the team that's all co-founding this together

and bring our vision to life of how we want

to work differently.

That's awesome.

And continuing kind of on the business track

just real quick, it's been a tough year

in the gaming industry.

There have been a lot of layoffs.

There have been a lot of great games,

but in many cases we see situations where

a fantastic game comes out

and then the team that worked on it is laid off.

Or maybe a brilliant game didn't reach the milestone

that a publisher wanted, or an executive

somewhere else wanted,

so they wind up having to cut into the team.

That's hard to deal with.

How do you guys view retaining that amazing talent?

I guess I'm throwing it out to both of you, Jade and John.

How do you focus on retaining that great talent

and continuing that momentum,

while also having to deal with like the economic realities

that swirl around the industry?

I mean, I guess there are a couple of things going on.

There was a little bit of a sort of post COVID deflation

I think across the game industry.

There was obviously a lot of hyper engagement during COVID,

and that slacked off a bit as people kind of returned

to more normal lives.

And gaming has become an incredibly mature

and competitive industry.

So, it's just the case that you really have

to bring your A game or your AAA game in Jason's case,

and knock it outta the park with your titles.

And you know, we've had games that didn't work.

We're fortunate, our most recent game,

Monster Hunter Now is doing really well.

And I think we incorporated some of the hard lessons

that we learned along the way into that title.

But that's the environment that we're in.

In terms of retaining and keeping people,

for us it's about giving people an opportunity

to really be at the cutting edge of using technology

to make games that people have never experienced before,

to innovate.

We're excited about mixed reality and augmented reality.

I think we're getting very close to that.

It's been coming for a long time.

I was reading the quote from Nicholas Negoponte

on the Wall from 1993 that said they expected in five years,

I think 10% of the US population to be wearing

[indistinct] computers.

It's taking a little bit longer, but we're getting there.

And so, we are unleashing our teams on building

for this next generation of hardware

and that's really motivating and exciting to people.

Jade, did you want to say?

Yeah, I really agree with what you said, John.

I think ultimately we're in that kind of business

where it's all about the passion.

People got into games because they love games.

And so, if you have a strong vision

and something you're trying to accomplish

that's inspiring people,

that's going to be the primary thing.

The other thing, obviously people care a lot about

who they're working with.

I think maybe when you're starting your career

or early on, you might be more attracted

to having a certain brand on your CV,

but what we're seeing more and more is that

people are attracted to work in a place

with people that they like,

that they know they can count on,

where they know the environment

and the culture is going to be good.

So, that's another reason we invest a lot in that.

And then I think investing in people's careers

is also really important, obviously.

If people feel that they can continue to grow and develop,

you have to invest in those kinds of things

so that people feel like they have a long...

Like they're engaged.

Career. Yeah.

And it's a place where they can grow.

And Rachel, from the other side of the table, right?

What are you seeing from the gaming community?

We all see the news, but there, I mean, people...

Okay, you don't get 4,000 hours in Destiny without

understanding the Destiny community sometimes, right?

So, and I famously tell people that my

just deal with it level for things is really high.

And then you see other people

and they're just deal with it level for things

are really low.

Like, You changed the button,

you changed the key bind for this,

and now it's literally unplayable.

How do you see the gaming public

either maturing along with the industry,

or not maturing in some cases along with the industry?

I think they're definitely maturing

alongside the industry.

Like I said earlier, I think that games reflect culture

but also create it.

For instance, we're seeing a less tolerance for toxicity

and hate across the board,

and it comes out in their actions.

And the bottom line,

players are less willing to spend money,

they're less willing to spend time

in games that are hostile.

And I would say when I first started playing games

in the late nineties,

people were not as willing to stand up to that behavior

and were far more accepting of just,

this is kind of the way it is here.

So, I'm really optimistic and my heart is warmed

that the community really is changing.

And John, I want to come back to you

because so many of the players of all of your games

meet in real life, right?

I mean sometimes they're behind screens,

but more often than not, they're in real life.

I had a nemesis in...

This is an Ingress joke again,

but I had a nemesis.

I live next to a park,

and the park had like eight portals in it.

And for people who don't play Ingress, this means nothing.

But ultimately what I'm really saying is

this park was my territory, it was mine.

And I had this guy who had come through in the middle

of the night and he would take it down every night

and I would wake up, and eventually I realized,

one, I'm too heated about this, I need to sleep.

And then two, I was in the park as the same time

as him one day and I met him and he was just a great guy.

I mean, we just talked, and that's an experience

that only really happens when you play a game

and you meet the other person you're talking to

in real life.

That has to have been something you guys think about.

Yeah, I think gamer toxicity maybe gets a bad rap

because a lot of the interactions happen online.

And I think there's just a general bias online

for things to kind of go negative,

whatever people are talking about.

It's just kind of an unfortunate artifact of that.

That's actually a pretty serious societal problem

I think at this point, well outside of gaming.

I think what's true is that whether it's a town hall meeting

for a community, or whether it's a group of gamers

getting together in a park,

whenever people meet face-to-face,

there's a level of civility, of courtesy,

of respect and openness that you often see.

Maybe not always, but it's just sort of wired into us,

I think, to be more open to real human contact

and to not be as quick on the draw, and as heated,

and nasty as people can be online.

So, I don't know, for us getting out

and talking to our community in person,

I'll go to our events and certainly people will vent

about the UI change that they didn't like.

But it's often couched with how much they love the game,

how important it is to them,

how they've made friends through it.

So, I'm just pro humanity, and pro getting people together

in the real world.

I think it's really important for us.

That's fantastic.

It's interesting though because when you talk to

the new generation who've grown up playing games,

there is no difference between a friend

that they've only met online and played with,

versus the real life friends,

or friends that you've met in person.

So, that is also shifting.

And I think just to talk about a counter example

also from old school gaming,

I played EverQuest a lot when I was...

I was actually working at Sony way back in the day,

my first job out of university.

We got to support EverQuest a bit in terms of code

and then also play it a bit when we were launching it.

And it really struck me, some friendships that I made

in that game when I'd never met the people.

I had no clue what they looked like.

And you could hear through voice chat

different accents or whatever.

But I think also there's a similar power

that games have to break down barriers

that might exist otherwise in life,

and enable you to talk to people and meet people

that you never would before.

And also really question maybe some preconceived ideas

you might have on people,

when everyone looks like an orc, or an elf, or whatever.

It creates a new way to interact with other humans,

which I think is really cool.

And I want to follow up on that exactly.

'Cause I wanted to ask you a little bit about Fairgames

because I mean, it's right there in the name, right?

So, I mean obviously there's the stuff you

clearly can't talk about about a game

that hasn't come out yet,

but I would love to hear some of your thoughts about

how you're building that game to get people together

in a constructive, friendly way,

that is a fair game to the players.

Yeah, I think we don't have a perfect formula yet.

We're still in development, so we have some ideas.

I think a lot of it is creating opportunities for teamwork

and joint objectives,

where the objective is not...

I think so many gas games are purely competitive,

and also shooters.

So, if you can even introduce different ways to interact

and different joint objectives,

and different kind of social situations,

and different spaces where you're not always in competition.

Different opportunities to help different players

create different social structures,

have different types of support of how

not just individuals can express themselves,

but how people can come together and express themselves

as a group.

So, those are the kinds of things we're looking into

and trying to bring to life.

I love that. And Rachel, so,

and again, from kind of our perspective,

we're sitting in front of the screens

and we're playing the games,

do you see the same hunger that I see for people

for those kinds of games?

I want to play with my friends,

but I don't always want it to be about

who got the most kills or who capped that point

that many times.

I want to feel like I'm an asset to my friends

without necessarily having to have the reflexes

that I lost 20 years ago.

You know what I mean?

I'm not that kid anymore.

I mean, I always say in the dystopian apocalypse,

my role will be cheerleader.

So, I'm really here for games that aren't based

on my hand eye coordination.

That would be great.

I think there's definitely a hunger for something,

for something new.

Everybody always wants something new and something novel.

And I just, again, I'm just so excited by the things

that you're saying about thinking about mechanics

to inform the social structures of the players interacting.

I think that's great and I'm here for it.

I think that's really the magic of games is that

there's not just the narrative elements.

There's the messages are carried through gameplay mechanics.

And so, if we really want to own our craft,

we have to think about how all those things to tie together.

But that's what's so great

because that's what makes games so unique.

And you're talking about friendships too,

and how I was saying friendships in games are different

and that they're real friends,

like online and offline is kind of a false dichotomy,

especially when it comes to the social and emotional support

people say they get from their friends,

specifically that they play games with.

So yeah, that's the answer.

One of my best friends is a V-tuber

and she begged me to patch her in on the big screen,

but I'm not doing it.

I don't know if she's brand safe,

but she is one of my very good friends and I've never...

I think I've met her in person maybe once, right?

But she's a ride or die.

If she's called me and said, I need help,

I'd fly to go see her.

And that's real,

those are real relationships we're building.

And actually we started Haven during the pandemic

and it was a time when we weren't allowed

being in the office,

we weren't allowed getting together.

We didn't have an office.

We started remotely with people

and we still wanted to have a way to build teamwork

and a sense of being...

And that happens often through having fun

and memorable experiences together.

That's how you build friendships.

We all started playing Valorant together.

And we were building different bases

and stocking them with things for each other.

So, you'd find little gifts,

and I remember being so touched when one of our programmers

came to save my body somewhere.

[all laughing] That's fantastic.

You feel like someone's...

When you live through those experiences,

you feel like someone's really done something.

Or I do anyways, feel like someone's done something

important for you in real life

and you're like, Wow, that was so kind of them

to go rescue my body.

Right.

Well thank you all so much for this.

Obviously, play Monster Hunter Go.

Stay tuned at Haven Studios for more information

about Fairgames, and buy your book.

Buy The Witcher book.

Buy the book.

It's about The Witcher. What are you talking about?

Thank you all so much. I appreciate it.

Thank you everyone. [audience applauding]